Mormonism

sworddance wrote:Also, I don't know where you get that impression that women can't get to the highest kingdom, because it is incorrect. They can. Many of the mormons I have spoken to are women, and they have told me this is what they believe. You see, to take myself for example, I lead a good life, I don't harm others around me and I don't harm myself with stupid choices. Therefore, I would go to either the Terrestial or the Telestial Kingdom. Whereas someone who led their life with acceptance of Christ as their savior and doing works for God and following Church doctrine and truly believing it with all their heart as well as the good, would end up in the Celestial Kingdom. And that's as near as a direct quote as I can give you, because that's almost the exact words I have been given.

Read for yourself the history of women in Mormonism.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm
http://www.lds-mormon.com/women.shtml
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_1_63/ai_84396060
I tried to find less biased sources this time :-P

sworddance wrote:I apologize if I give off the impression that I'm trying to tell you that they are correct and you should convert, because there would be a distinct irony in that, and I don't believe it anyway. I am not saying that their beliefs are correct, nor would I say that the general christian belies are correct. My problem here is that you insist upon telling me that they do not know wat they believe.

While appearing insanely arrogant of me before, can you see now why, and on what grounds I make that, (very well put) accustion? They do not know what they "believe". Let me clarify. Absolutely, your friend knows what she believes in her head. Whether or not this is consistent with Mormonism is the issue. Yes, there are defined rules for any religion. No, it's not up to just what you think and feel. If that's what you want, call yourself a new-ager.

sworddance wrote:You say that from what you know, she is not talking mormonism at all. But there's the problem: she isn't lying, she believes what she says, and she is Mormon. So, if every mormon (and every one of them has given me the same explanation) belives what is taught to them, except perhaps a small percent of these conspiratorial church leaders who are hiding the truth from them, then how is that truly what the LDS church believes?

Written doctrines. And I think there may be slightly more conspiracy and secrecy in the Mormon church than they would care to admit. Food for thought/investigation.

sworddance wrote:I'm fairly certain that if 99% of mormons believe what they believe, that would be.... well, what they believe, isn't it?

LoL, very close, but I think everyone believes what they believe. But you were only off by 1% so who's counting? ;-)

sworddance wrote:Remember that churches evolve. Even if you are correct about their views as they were when they were first founded, then, well, that's fine, but it isn't what they believe now, is it? Therefore, you can say it [I]is[I] what they believe, only what you think they [I]did[I] believe.

You are absolutely right about this, (as far as it concerns the Mormon church anyways.) I know that I am constantly hearing about the doctrinal diet changes from my Mormon friends. I still don't know if they're allowed to have soda this year or not. ;-) But in this respect you are very much right, they could have changed their whole religion in the past month so I couldn't say, "That's not what Mormons believe!"
However, you will notice, my main problems have been, not with what Mormons believe today, but their denial of what they used to in the past. Here, I meet outright, ignorant denial of claims on polygamy, and polytheism. I can clearly, concisely, and accurately point to the history books and say, "No, you've been misinformed."
I don't have a copy of Mormon doctrine on me, but it is quite difficult to change a book as widely printed as the Holy Bible (which they claim to believe) as well as the Book of Mormon.

sworddance wrote:And my source about the polygamy.... I'm not entirely certain, but I believe I first heard about that during my APUSH class. Don't shoot me if you can't find it in the American Pageant, because I'm not sure if it was talked about or not. As I recall, I read about it then, and later asked my friend about it because it sounded fishy, and she explained about the command from God part of it. I accept her explanation not as justification for something I too see as wrong, but as an explanation of why. To them, it was a divine command, and to them, it could not be ignored. Not saying I believe it, I'm just telling you what they believe as I get it from them.

Oddly enough, God didn't give that command to any of ther other settlers that died rapidly of typhoid, smallpox, etc. on the trek westward. Could this perhaps be the attempt of embarrassed Mormons to cover up their leaders flamboyant lifestyle. (I trust you read the historical part about Joseph Smith having at least 20 something wives?)

sworddance wrote:About the name Jo- it's a nickname, and it is generally disrespectful to refer to a complete stranger by a nickname unless it is widely known that they wish to be referred to in that manner. It would be a lapse, in this context, of academic respect, insofar as to refer to, say, Jesus Christ as the Big G. It is a commonly used derogatory measure, to turn the object of derision into an offhand label such as Jo which can be used instead of a full name. It makes it easier to talk about said object as though he or she is faceless or nameless.

I see your point. Truly, I did that, not only because it was easier to type, but out of disdain for the person that Joseph Smith was. I believe him to be a liar and scoundrel, however, I would want others to respect the man I most admire as well, regardless of their beliefs of him. Though I did laugh at the notion of Jesus being referred to as Big G. Hahahaha.
But yes, I see your point. My apologies.

sworddance wrote:Amusingly, I can link this back to the book "1984". Don't know if you've read it or not, but if you have you'll understand the reference. In any case, if everyone believes a thing is true, then it's true for them, isn't it? In that way, truth can be considered a relative concept. There may be four lights but I believe there are five, then at least to me there are five, right?
Here, we cross into entirely new ground, perhaps better suited for my new thread titled "Quid Est Veritas?" I will say this: I am utterly against the notion that "Whatever you believe is right for you is truth." type thinking. I believe this leads into nothing but chaos and destruction of everything humanity stands for. And I'm not exaggerating that one iota.

sworddance wrote:Wrong or right, if they think that they believe what they believe, then they believe it, and not what you say they believe.

Agreed. Sort of. ;-) I say they don't believe Mormonism. They may believe a variant or parts of it, but the doctrines and teachings and histories of Mormonism that they deny, disqualify them from being Mormons. If I claim to believe that I am a tree-hugger, but spend my life incessantly starting forest fires, what do I really believe?

sworddance wrote:Hmmm... if you can sort out what the heck that means, I hope it helps you understand why I dislike to hear any one person trying to explain what another person believes. It would be as ridiculous as me trying to tell you that no, you're a bigot, you're lying to me, your faith is wrong, and the Bible has nothing to do with God.

I see where you are coming from, and yes, I tried my best to understand where you are coming from =)
Unfortunately, I think we have a major disagreement about the nature of truth, and that could get ugly in the future.
For now, I'm going to leave it be, though. Maybe sometime in Quid Est.

Man I stayed up way too late :-P
G'night
-Tyler

My view on Mormonism is this:
Mormonism is about equally as silly as other religions. Indeed, in many aspects, Mormonism is superior to Christianity (in that it is a bit more internally consistent - not much though).

Zasch wrote:My view on Mormonism is this:
Mormonism is about equally as silly as other religions. Indeed, in many aspects, Mormonism is superior to Christianity (in that it is a bit more internally consistent - not much though).

Agreed 100%.

"Here's a nice unbiased source:
http://www.carm.org/lds/beginning.htm"

you can't really call this an unbiased site. I checked it out, CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY. It is a known fact that the other "Christian" denominations view Mormanism as a cult. You are even a Christian. The information cannot be viable.
">http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon334.htm[/B]
This man is still a practicing mormon. Obviously his grudge was against his overzealose father, than the creed.

I believe that 1+1=3...
is that the truth?

I just happened upon this and I TOTALLY love how Solarflare uses and ex-mormon website as proof of what a mormon believes. They obviously would be biased against the mormon church. To get more solid facts a website like mormon.org or lds.org would work way better.

LDS people (mormons) don't believe that they're superior to women. Yes, a woman can't make it to the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom without a man, but neither can a man without a woman. It's a team effort.

Another thing about the bible thing. Do you really think that 2000 years latter after so many pope changes and pope infiltrations and buyouts and the hundreds of translations that it says the exact word of God. I think you (in third person, not directed at anyone in particular) would be lying through your teeth to believe that. That's why you believe in the one that is the MOST correct.

Really, I don't think that what religion you believe in matters in the long run. As long as you get closer to yourself and with the world and try to make it a better place, you've succeeded. If anyone takes anything out of this post take out this. Let's put aside our differences and make a world that we can be proud of.

"Really, I don't think that what religion you believe in matters in the long run. As long as you get closer to yourself and with the world and try to make it a better place, you've succeeded. If anyone takes anything out of this post take out this. Let's put aside our differences and make a world that we can be proud of."

Agreed!

This is why many Christians don't like mormons:
http://www.break.com/index/christian-guy-totally-owns-mormons.html