Moving Towards Communism???

I am a World Socialist myself.

America, if anything, is going further away from Socialist ideology than ever.

America will see its downfall

as will other countries.

Capitalism (at least the bastardised American form) has been the downfall of the world. It causes war. It causes racism. It causes third world countries.

What we need is a global revolution... which is only what World Socialism is trying to provide. We are pushing for smart alternatives, communal ownership, a classless and wageless society, with no borders.

We are true socialists, following in the teachings of Karl Marx. We reject the ideology provided by Trotsky and Lenin, as they were state capitalists.

xenahorse wrote:I almost wish tht we do indeed move towards socialsim, since all in all, it seems like a pretty good thing to me. I know that a lot of people really dislike socialism and communism, but remember, there has never truley been a real communist society-all of them have turned into dictatorships (all that I know of, anyways; ex. Soviet Union, China, ect.)
Why do you suppose that is? The fact is that Socialism and Communism don't work with humans. Maybe with angels, not with humans.
You find it so hard to believe because essentially every worldview besides Christianity believes that, "We can save ourselves". That's the basic difference. Unfortunately, you run into problems of reality like these every day. Why is man so doggon corrupt?
"Well, it must be the SOCIETY! Yes, we'll blame it on society, (nevermind that society is made up of humans.) And that way we can keep believe that man is essentially good at the core"

Whereas if you could accept the blatant truth that man is NOT good at his core, but hopelessly evil, you could recognize, hey, governmental structures like communism and socialism, will never work. Why? Because we are all greedy beings that want as much power for ourselves as possible.
"Oh but that's the answer!" You say, "Socialism will give power to none, (or everyone depending on how you see it, but that sounds too much like democracy)" Unfortunately this has been tried and tried again throughout history and the conclusion is always the same. All the power winds up in the hands of a few elite, while the rest of the population starves in unthinkable poverty.
If you disagree with this, study history a little more. (Not that I should be speaking, I have a horrible history background).

You are right, in a sense, and this may be where you're coming from, if man were able, socialism would be a good form of government. As things are however, the system is flawed. What's most infuriating to me is that we have seen example after example after example of what happens to those who put any sort of stock in Marx or Lenin. Look at their backgrounds for goodness sake, see how in touch with reality they were.

That sounds a little extreme. Just from my point of view, they chose to ignore the nature of mankind when they spoke of their "Utopias".
(Which ironically enough means, "no place")

Tell me what you think.
=)

tallgeese wrote:you and i think alike.

america is ....mmm...a good nation...yet very twisted.

we need more gov. regulations on economic issues... one that bothers me most is....our athletes.

we have police officers that pull over cars and they basically risk a bullet in their face everytime. we have athletes that step off the bus and hit a ball and get paid more than a million times then what a police officer makes.

firefighters, SWAT team, police officers, our armed forces, teachers (because they make doctors and they make lawyers) need to be better funded than people on TV that shoot balls and get millions of dollars.

it makes me sad, i've got so many friends that are firefighters and police officers. it's not fair.
Life ain't fair. I hear you.
I totally agree with you I wish we could balance the nobility, usefulness, and risky jobs with the high paying wages, but unfortunately, supply and demand dictates where the money goes, not my wishes.

We're twisted yeah, but I disagree with you. I would argue that we need LESS governmental intervention and more free market. I think you will find as you study economics that when the government tries to dictate who gets what instead of letting supply and demand work their magic, you get horrible inefficiency, many negative unforseen side effects, and more expensive results than you wanted in the first place.

I believe a government should be in place for three reasons.
1. To defend the laws set down by the people and to see that the will of the people is done.
2. To defend the borders, (such a large scale operation is most effectively coordinated by a power that everyone answers to.)
3. To build roads. I think we are more like Rome than we know. (But honestly I think it's the most efficient way to build roads, instead of hiring private contractors, but then we've never tried, have we?)

I dunno, some crazy ideas maybe? Let me know what you think.
=)

AP_Work_R wrote:Socialism is really a great idea....but it won't work. Great on essays and FRQ's but it can't work. Say, we let Bill Gates distribute all of his money he has made and will continue to give it up everday to every single people. Add the charity, scholarships, the AIDS donations, and other money he gives (subtract that from his total amount). Calculate the amount of people (homeless are people too :p), and the birth rates (children being born per day). Divide the amount of Bill Gates has by the sum... What would each citizen get...eh...less than a dollar...

The world needs rich and poor people...there needs to be a clash between these economic gap in order for the economy to flow. Without it, well...$1 for everyone, everyday, uh...well $1's going to reduce through the week because of increase in populations... working at different (even dangerous) jobs, but who cares? It's fair...isn't it? What happens if the economy crashes...what do we do then...
You are most definitely the closest to my views on this forum that I've seen. Communism won't work, simple fact. But I think for other reasons than you stated. You have to remember Bill Gates isn't the only source of money in this world, though your point is made quite clearly.

Economics is the key, and people who want socialism/communism simply don't want to face the facts of life. It's ok for speculation, but when they grow up into little Marxists, there's a problem. People are selfish, self centered beings by NATURE, they are not self-sacrificing, others-oriented. And that's the pre-requisite for communism and socialism.

I would encourage those who are in favor of communism to research all those nations that have given it a try. And then post the results here. I would like to see a favorable outcome. The closest thing I can think of is Great Britan (not even fully socialist), and they're on their way down. Just wait for 2018. *Dun! dun! dun!*

Those of you arguing in favor of communism I suspect of being victim to swallowing hook, line, and sinker everything bad they've been told about capitalism, while silmultaneously ignoring the positive effects.

The only better position I can imagine is being in China right now. They've just figured out how bad communism sucks and they're getting into free-market economy. Look at Shang Hai. D-A-N-G!
=)

Word to Mike2000

charolastra wrote:I am a World Socialist myself.

America, if anything, is going further away from Socialist ideology than ever.

America will see its downfall

as will other countries.

Capitalism (at least the bastardised American form) has been the downfall of the world. It causes war. It causes racism. It causes third world countries.

What we need is a global revolution... which is only what World Socialism is trying to provide. We are pushing for smart alternatives, communal ownership, a classless and wageless society, with no borders.

We are true socialists, following in the teachings of Karl Marx. We reject the ideology provided by Trotsky and Lenin, as they were state capitalists.
LOL

=)

pianogirl2422 wrote:I'm going to have to side with xenahorse on this one about dictatorships.

And I feel for you too tallgeese. And here's where I start digressing...
Teachers are my main interest, although I do agree that all the public servants deserve much more than they are, but with teachers we have serious problems. Do you know, if you graduate you can take a three week training course and then be allowed to teach? This is how desperate we are for teachers. The problem is that these teachers don't know how to teach well. The solution is to raise the pay and the standards along with it. Once teaching becomes a career where you can live comfortably all month with kids and all of their needs, then maybe we could get some better quality teachers in our schools and then....

A BETTER EDUCATED GENERATION RUNNING THE COUNTRY!!!!

And finally to answer the original question:
I posted this somewhere else, but here's my view on Communism- Communism will never succeed as long as greed and jealousy (and maybe a few other emotions) are no longer a part of human nature.

Communism doesn't work because it breeds corruption. It's so easy to shave a little from everyone else and add it to yours.
Word.
To everything except for, I didn't think greed was an emotion. What is greed? Is it an action? A corrupt intent of the heart? I don't think I'm just sitting there and then all of the sudden feel greedy. I dunno.
Odd, I've never thought about defining it. Anyone got an answer?

Also, the teacher thing. I don't think we are desperate for teachers. That would imply that demand would be up for teachers. And we can see from the pay, (price and demand are directly related) for teachers is abominably low. I would say that we need LESS teachers. That will cause an increase in demand, thus pay raise. The problem becomes, how do we educate our children?
The answer: homeschooling =D

The subsequent problem: less workers in the labor force, (the moms or dads will be at home teaching and watching the kiddies). This will in turn cause higher demand for labor thus....
Yes, increasing the pay once again. I know I'm ignoring a lot of the negative side effects here, but these are some pretty dang good reasons, no?

Feedback please?
=)

xenahorse wrote:Ditto to pianogirl's discription of communism!

And in response to Mike, you also have to look at other factors for the collapse of communism- in all instances that I can think of, the introduction of communism has been rapidly introduced- and if you look back at the basic idea of Marxism, of which I base my ideas of communism and socialism on, it's introduction was supposed to take place over a long and leingthly time to allow people to ajust. And there is a main fault of extreme socialism and communism, the belief that the resources of one will become the recources of another- that is why com. and soc. are REALLY hard to achieve, and arguments have been made that they go against human nature. But just because it hasn't happened succesfully yet dosen't mean that it never will. Remember that a democracy was thought just to be an idea that only 'looked good on paper' and was thought to only work with small groups untill the USA was formed.
The Greeks invented democracy, they put it into practice. Worked pretty dang well until they were absorbed by the romans...
Who in turn used it...
Democracy works best for sinful beings. It's fact, and proven fact, and being proven day to day. (My evidence, the American economy vs. everyone else, excluding ShangHai ofcoarse)

pianogirl2422 wrote:Okay, this may sound strange, but I agree with both MattJobs and AP_Work_R.

MattJobs- I agree that in order for communism to work it would have to be on a world wide scale. But about the military spending, if all fighting were to cease between countries, then we would not only not have to spend money keeping troops in other countries, but we wouldn't have to spend money on weapons, chemical and biological research that is to be used for weapons, training of soldiers, ammunition, etc. Then we might be able to solve problems like hunger and disease and other such things.

AP_Work_R- I agree that no government is perfect. But I see a flaw in your arguement. You say that no form of communism has succeeded so far, but unless I'm mistaken, no other form of democracy succeeded until the founding fathers came along.
Not true, the Greeks and Romans did wonderfully, until they became dictatorships. (Well Rome did, Greece was absorbed).

Democracy hasn't failed, it simply can't stay democracy for very long because of the corrupted nature of human beings. Some one is always trying to seize power.
Why do you think we put IN a system of checks and balances? Because our founding father's knew this and accepted the reality of human nature. Then they made provisions against it. Unfortunately, we are slowly eroding the very thing they swore never to erode, our Constitution.
The power struggle will never stop, it can only be prolonged and checked.

I'm going to stop now so that I don't have an entire PAGE to myself, thus appearing to be a comment whore. This whole topic is just so much fun to discuss. I wish I were in the middle of it, but I appear to be coming in just as it is ending.
Ah well, maybe someone out there still wants to beat this dead horse.