Religion (God)

I do believe in God but. I dont believe in all of the organized religion bc the organized religion is just away for ppl to make money off of other ppls believes and the are using god to make money which in my opinion is wrong :)

Armando wrote:My question(s) are:

If God does exist, and God is all powerful and what not, why doesn't he make it so everyone believes in him? Why would God not make everyone believe he exists and pray for him and praise him?
I think for the same reason he gave man free will in the first place. It is impossible to love if you are "forced". Because love is not forced God had to give mankind the ability to choose wrong. He gives mankind the choice to ignore his existance, and that is their choice. But what kind of love would it be, for us and for Him, to say, *Zap* You are all now Christians and believe everything right."
I don't think that's the nature of God. At least I'm pretty sure, but I'm only 19 so, I could still have a long way to go.

You guys bring up excellent points that I wish the whole world would ask. It's you guys who are actually seeking the truth, not just saying you are, but actually searching. And you know what they say, (or He says rather), "Seek and you will find, knock and it will be opened"

Keep searching for the truth, not legalistically or simply to debate, but with your whole heart, and God will honor that. I believe.

=)
-Tyler

Armando wrote:The Bible WAS written by men... It's totally biased and it has been modified countless times.
You are half right. Well 1/4 right.
It was written by men, those they were inspired by God. God wrote the Bible, he simply chose to write it through men, instead of saying, "Bam, here's my word and instruction to the human race, follow it." I mean, how much MORE would that be criticized? Can't you just see it?
"This Bible isn't real, even if it did fall from heaven. Someone just flew up in a prehistoric airplane and dropped it out of the sky as a prehistorical joke. I mean, half the stuff in here doesn't even make sense"....etc. etc.
Anyone can criticize anything. The Bible has just been around for so long, it gets more than it's fair share I think.

And about this, "It's been modified too many times" This is patently and proveably a false statement. I'm sure scholars such as yourselves have heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls. For those that don't, I will summarize:

Having nothing to do with the Bible, there was found a scroll copy of the book of Isaiah, (one of the books in the Bible), dating to before the birth of Christ. This means it was, say...at least 2,000 years older than our most recent translation. All this nonsense that the Da Vinci Code has brought up about, "the original meaning and translation being distorted through time" is simply wrong at best, at worst a flagrant lie.
Do you know what the test results were when the scroll was tested against a recent Hebrew translation of the Scroll of Isaiah? 99.5% accuracy. Some MINOR changes had occured, but nothing major.

Please don't take my word for it, research it for yourselves. Discover the truth. Don't buy what people tell you, that's where the trouble begins. Learn for yourselves. How appropriate on this site, no?
=)
-Tyler

erikvarho wrote:Things that are unproven are not proven true..

It's possible that unproven things may be true, that also means the opposite, that they may not be true. So you can believe its true all you want, but you can just as easily not believe. So the whole idea of conversion is flawed, because you're trying to make somebody wholly accept something that is only a possibility.

Exactly. So people shouldn't try to convince people one way or the other, that would be assuming that the person is correct, which isn't neccessarily true. It's all up to personal opinion.
What if one person is right?
What if there is absolute truth, (another topic entirely)
Shouldn't one make his decision based on the probability if both choices have equal evidence, (which is untrue, but again another topic for another time).

If so, no doubt many of you have seen this diagram of probability of choice. Not sure who originally made it up, but I will try to duplicate it as best I can, it seems perfectly appropriate for this topic.

You have four choices, (it is easier to draw out a square, but I can't figure out how to do this on here ;-)

1. Christianity is right, you believe, you go to heaven.
2. Christianity is right, you don't believe, you go to hell.
3. Christianity is wrong, you believe, you cease to exist, (having wasted your life believing a lie)
4. Christianity is wrong, you don't believe, you cease to exist, (having made the most of your existance here on earth.)

Notice, the ultimate reality for choices 3 and four are the same, annihilation. So, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter if evolutionists are right, (I use this as my genaric "Christianity is wrong" filler), because the results are the same.

However, for choices one and two, the decision is infinitely important. Probability wise, which is the best decision? I'll leave the math to you.
Think about it.
I appreciate any responses, (do you get sent emails when your stuff is replied to?)
=)
-Tyler

Armando wrote:But see, that's where I get confused. I don't understand how you can believe in God but not the Bible if the Bible *IS* the *word* of God supposedly. You either believe it all or you don't. That's partly why I don't believe in God at all.
Excellent point. You have spotted a perfect inconsistancy that completely wastes all these claims, (in my opinion either silly, uneducated, or foolish, or all three) that "I'm a Christian but I don't believe the Bible, or not all of it"

You either believe all, or none. Simply. Because if it IS the inerrant Word of God, that means it either is or is not. If some of it is untrue, what is to say other parts are untrue? I assume that you believe that it is too fallible, too inconsistant, (both untrue I believe, and would like to support if you care to further investigate the topic), to be true. Thus, you have rejected it entirely.
You are consistant, that is to be commended. Though I imagine that if you are this smart, your current worldview is unsatisfactory. You know God exists, because all other options are ludicrous, but you cannot marry these ideas of a completely Just God, and all the injustice in the world, things like that.
Should you inquire further, I'd love to instant message you or email or something. I think I could provide some answers.

The Bible is the inspired Word of God.
=)
-Tyler

erikvarho wrote:That's really confusingly worded... I'm just saying, people have arguements one way or the other, but neither can be proven by realistic standards, so I can't choose. If God came out of the sky and said "Yo." I'd believe, and if it was somehow possible to scientifically prove God doesn't exist, then I'd believe that.
I totally understand where you're coming from. But first, you gotta know, it's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. That is fact. Research it if you disagree.
Second, what kind of faith is that? I mean, I guess you gotta know that God calls us to believe by faith, (faith is being sure of things unseen hoping for what has not yet come to pass). Everyone has faith, you must know that. Not necessarily in God, or Christ, or even the Bible. But everyone has faith.
It is, however, not an act of faith to first See and then to Believe. God doesn't work that way. Which is why He will never pop out of the sky and say "Yo" He specifically says that he won't do that.
Jesus actually calls us the "wicked and adulterous generation" for that very reason, because we seek a sign before we will believe.
I severely doubt you put any stock in the Bible anyway, but I just thought I'd let you know how I see it. I admire that you're at least questioning these things. I encourage you to seek the truth, not to be satisfied with what I, or someone else tells you, but to find out for yourself.
=)
-Tyler

Beauty wrote:Yes I would still believe whether or not christianity teaches eternal punishment. I would believe because I don't believe in God cos i'm scared that I would go to hell yes that is one the reasons but my main reason is that, the work of God is evidence in my life. I know that Bible was written by men but they wrote it by the leading of God. I'm not assuming God exists, I know God exists. As I said before, it's all a matter of choice, you can either choose to believe or not to believe. God doesn't turn anyone away from heaven, he wants us with him in heaven.
God absolutely turns people away from heaven, you should let him have that one. (If he didn't no one would go to Hell). He is simply expressing the incredibly offensive nature of out faith. God saves sinners. God doesn't choose the nice people, (because they are nice). Sure he can save some good, honest, people. But that's not all He saves. He saves seriel rapists, murders, thieves, liars, and adulterers. Praise God!

He doesn't save us because of what we do, is what I think you should have replied with, because God absolutely rejects some. It is His will that would come to Him and that none would perish, but He also gives us a choice. =)
-Tyler

P.S. Good for you for standing up for what you believe. Be wise a serpent and innocent as a dove.

It's not fair to think that people that believe in evolution are not Christian, or even do not believe in God.
My dad is a scientist, and although he is not a creationist it does not been he is not a strong Christian. What about intelligent design?
And also, I don't believe that it's black and white. Believe every single freaking thing in the bible or you are not a Christian. That's stupid. Because obviously some of it is not. There are several contradictions in the bible so it is not possible for all of it to be correct.

sheltieviolin wrote:It's not fair to think that people that believe in evolution are not Christian, or even do not believe in God.
My dad is a scientist, and although he is not a creationist it does not been he is not a strong Christian. What about intelligent design?
And also, I don't believe that it's black and white. Believe every single freaking thing in the bible or you are not a Christian. That's stupid. Because obviously some of it is not. There are several contradictions in the bible so it is not possible for all of it to be correct.
I do not believe that Genesis was metaphorical. Nor do I believe that God used evolution to create the world, for a few reasons.
1. If you start with Genesis being a metaphor, where do you stop and take it seriously? No, I beliebe God created the heavens and the earth in six days. (the seventh he rested ;-)
2. If you believe in the Bible, why would you need evolution? What is the point in saying, "I believe in God, but he used evolution." There simply is no point. The whole point of evolution is to tell human beings that we have no intrinsic value, life is pointless, and that we are our own gods, we answer to no one. It is the fundamental problem of answering to God that evolution tries to deal with. (unfortunately it saps humankind of all purpose and hope, not such a good trade off if you ask me).

I didn't understand your sentence about your dad. What about intelligent design? God created the universe, that's intelligent design...Could you re-explain that one to me? Sorry :-/ (I mean no disrespect to your father or family by this post, I simply adamantly believe this, have been raised with this, and feel that I'm basically equipped to answer these problems.

I would ask you, are you saying that there is no absolute truth? (Because that's an argument I am prepared for=) What do you mean it isn't all black and white? I know that life isn't all black and white and that there are grey areas, but that's one of the main reasons the Bible is so helpful. It IS black and white, it teaches absolute truth, it's a compass in a way.

And yes, you must believe, "every single freaking thing in the Bible" And no, it's not stupid. It would be stupid to believe part of it. (and inconsistant)

But you admit your own worldview, "obviously some of it is not [true]" So starting from this presupposition, you conscientiously can not believe the Bible, because from your perspective, Duh, it's flawed.
However, the Bible claims to be the inerrent, infallible Word of God. Therefore, it either is, or it is not. There is no room for maybe. Follow?

If you believe only parts, why would you believe any of it? Because any of it could be flawed. You cannot conform the Bible to your own particular worldview, to make it say what you like, that's just silly and foolish.

And again, the ever perpetuating problem, "There are several contradictions in the Bible so it is not possible for all of it to be correc."
I staunchly answer that this information is incorrect, and alas, I'm ill equipped to answer everything that you may be able to throw at me, but I would say it's open season if you've got a problem with the Word of God, I will be more than happy to try to dispell some obvious lies you've been told.
The question is, are you anywhere near being able to believe that the Bible, might, possibly, maybe, with some small chance, be the perfect, inerrant Word of God.

I hope that you will draw on all your resources to give me all 'inconsistancies' that you see. I will in turn draw on all of mine to answer them to the best of my ability. With any luck, this will be a search for the truth that many others will read.
Seeking truth =)
-Tyler

Believing in the Bible is no reason to ignore factual, scientific prove. Creatures evolve. There is just no way around it.
Intelligent design says that:
1. God created the matter in the universe.
2. It was God's plan as to how the matter in the universe evolved. (aka: atoms clustered and like in a billion years = plant) lol, of course an exaggeration and oversimplification. But that's is the general thing. It is an opinion that the "whole point of evolution is to tell human beings that we have no intrinsic value, life is pointless, and that we are our own gods, we answer to no one." and "saps humankind of all purpose and hope".
It is entirely possible for a human to believe that the world and living things change according to God's plans, and to then believe that their existence on on earth is for a purpose. As such, not believing in creationism and believing in evolution cannot make someone not a Christian.
And btw, the reason God could not have created the earth in 6 days is because the sun wasn't made until the 4th day. Time and days are measured by the earth's rotation in relation to the sun. There was consequently no way to measure time for when God made light, heaven, water/land, and life. An infinite amount of time could have passed. You could say theoretically, God did all these things in the amount of time six days would pass currently, but it doesn't really make sense to do so since there was no time.

No, I am not in any way shape or form able to say that the bible was the inerrant, infallible word of God. Here is why:
Contradictions:
2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..." while 2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death" while 2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"
2 Samuel 8:3-4 says "David smote also Hadadezer...and took from him...seven hundred horsemen..." while 1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says "David smote Hadarezer...and took from him...seven thousand horsemen..."
1 Kings 4:26 says "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots..." while 2 Chronicles 9:25 says "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots..."
2 Kings 25:8 says "And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month...Nebuzaradan...came...unto Jerusalem" while Jeremiah 52:12 says "...in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month...came Nebuzaradan...into Jerusalem"
1 Samuel 31:4-6 says "...Saul took a sword and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead and...died with him. So Saul died..." 2 while Samuel 21:12 says "...the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa."
Gen 2:17 says "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die [note: it doesn't say 'spiritual' death] while Gen 5:5 says "And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died."
Matt 1:16 says, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus..." while Luke 3:23 says "And Jesus...the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli"
James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." While Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."
Gen 6:20 says "Of fowls after their kind and of cattle [etc.]...two of every sort shall come unto thee..." while Gen 7:2,3 says "Of every clean beast thou shall take to thee by sevens...Of fowls also of the air by sevens..."
Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." While John 19:30 "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." While John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."

Factual Errors

1 Kings 7:23 "He made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." Circumference = Pi() x Diameter, which means the line would have to have been over 31 cubits. In order for this to be rounding, it would have had to overstate the amount to ensure that the line did "compass it round about." (the mathematician in me is disgusted)
Lev 11:20-21: "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you." Fowl do not go upon all four.
Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..." Hare do not chew the cud.
Deut 14:7: " "...as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof." For the hare this is wrong on both counts: Hare don’t chew the cud and they do divide the "hoof."
Jonah 1:17 says, "...Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights" Matt 12:40 says "...Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly..." whales and fish are not related
Matt 13:31-32: " "the kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed which…is the least of all seeds, but when it is grown is the greatest among herbs and becometh a tree." There are 2 significant errors here: first, there are many smaller seeds, like the orchid seed; and second, mustard plants don't grow into trees.
Matt 4:8: " Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them." Unless the world is flat, altitude simply will not help you see all the kingdoms of the earth.

So here is what we are left with:
1. The bible is wrong
2. God is wrong

Take your pick.

~Irene
PS, for your future reference (this might be helpful on SATs!) it is ‘inconsistent’ and ‘consistent’. You may have gotten your idea that consistent was spelled with an a because of its similarity towards the word constant, but its not. No offense of course, and completely off topic, just thought you should know if you’re ever writing some serious essay or whatnot.